Practical Access Podcast

S7 E3: CEC Diverse learners and teachers with Dr. Christopher Cormier

March 02, 2022 Season 7 Episode 3
Practical Access Podcast
S7 E3: CEC Diverse learners and teachers with Dr. Christopher Cormier
Show Notes Transcript

In today's episode, recorded live at the CEC 100th Anniversary, we were able to sit down with Dr. Christopher Cormier. Dr. Cormier is a former special education teacher and a current postdoctoral fellow in the Center to Support Excellence in Teaching at the Stanford Graduate School of Education. His research program focuses on the social and cultural contexts of minoritized learners and teachers in special education. Tune in as Drs. Rebecca Hines and Lisa Dieker honor, celebrate, and reflect on CEC's past 100 years while also thinking ahead to the future. 

Don't forget we love to hear from our listeners! If you have any questions, feel free to reach out. We look forward to receiving your questions on our Google Phone (407) 900- 9305, Facebook (Practical Access), Twitter (@AccessPractical), or Instagram (@Practical_Access).

Lisa Dieker  0:06  
Welcome to practical access. I'm Lisa Dieker. And I'm Rebecca Heinz. And as always, Lisa has done a fantastic job of rounding up a great guest for this session. Yes. So we are so excited to have Christopher Cormier with us. And he is a postdoc at Stanford University. He happens to be an ally, but will go there later, and happens to really focus on special education teachers of color, but he's also serving on CCS President role for the division for culturally and linguistically diverse, exceptional learners. So thank you for joining us, Christopher. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Oh, and we didn't mention Yes, twin daughters.

Which means you probably have one raptor and each picky is my guess. Yes, it the daughters, for the most part, yes, I have their stuffed animals in my bad because they made me take pictures with the mattify. Before we leave.

I love it. Well, we love that you're awesome. Fabulous dad. So so I'm going to kick off with the first question. You know, it's the 100th anniversary of CC, it's we're going to ask you reflect kind of in the past, in your own personal work? Where are you most excited about the impact or some thinking that you've made in the field to this point?

Dr. Christopher Cormier  1:16  
I think it's twofold, my answer. So on one hand, I think about my work, because I think my work is being a teacher is one thing that I'm happy on. And then my work as a researcher and scholar being another. So I think when I was a teacher, I just really am happy about the fact that I was willing to stick my neck out and be a maverick for the students, particularly students of color. in special education. There were so many challenges that many of these students had, that they, when they spoke up, people didn't believe them, or just whatever else was going on. So I'm really proud, and being able to help them learn and help them. Like all teachers, when you notice something that a student didn't know how to do, and that light bulb goes off. It's just a great feeling, especially for students who have disabilities, who are in 11th 12th grade and can't even decode. And so when you finally get to the point where they can actually know the alphabet and do some some decoding, it's just a great feeling. One of my students recently is getting married, it really shows me. So I had him when he was in seventh grade. As far as my research as a scholar, I continuously push issues of equity and diversity, every meeting that I've been in the CCCC board members, whether it's open or not, I bring up the question of if they say equity, why are we defining equity, because in special education, we continue to only define equity in ways that we're working with students with disabilities, not thinking about linguistic differences and racial ethnic differences. So those are the two things that I'm proud of that I know that many teachers don't have are not in spaces where they have that platform to be able to have a voice on this magnitude. So I'm just really pleased of being able to be in this place. For the most part, it can be taxing at times. Yeah, voice is

Rebecca Hines  2:50  
important. And, you know, then I'm gonna throw this at Christopher without any warning. So what one of our recent graduates and scholars Whitney Hanley actually in her dissertation, she, in her study, she found that black girls had a sense of feeling surveilled, that she was looking at middle schoolers. And it's such a specific thing that she found that it there's an action item that I can take now as as somebody in teacher preparation, I can say, hey, this is what we found. And so what can we do differently as teachers to make sure we're not just looking at certain kids? What are some other specific things that I can tell these pre service teachers that they're just not even aware that they're doing? What What can I do to help all of my students?

Dr. Christopher Cormier  3:41  
That is a great question. And I'm also gonna have a shameless plug based on your question, because I have a paper coming out any day now and teaching Exceptional Children that is that I use a fictionalized vignette of a black girl named le Keisha. And in Southeast Asian American student name, Han. And I actually deal with that. So the paper is called, How did you get here, and I'm supposed to be here and examine the social, emotional and mental health support of twice exceptional learners, minoritized learners. So exactly what you mentioned, there's this fictionalizing yet of a girl named Keisha, who is seen as being loud and seen as being defiant, and not seen for her exceptionally brightness, and that she should also be in a gait class. So to your point, I think that the reality is that it we need to push against the stereotype attitude of black women, particularly when we're looking at this particular case of black girls, but girls in schools are seen as much older than white kids. That's the problem. So they they're 12 years old. But the perception in the way that they're treated in schools is like they're 16 or 17. And then there's this there's this hyper sexualized aspect that they have towards black girls. And then also this attitude that they're defiant and that they're the angry black woman so until schools can because schools are microcosms of society, and society sees black women in the same way until we can get to a point where we are pushing teachers to not have the same negative racist stereotype. Typical attitudes of these girls, then it's just going to continue. And I, I wish my work is trying to push up against that by doing work, I try to do work, if I'm doing a research study, then I try to match that with doing papers for practitioners, very challenging because we're not taught how to write to practitioners and Doc programs. But I think the reality is that until we can get to a point of having open dialogue conversations of what is really going on in the schools, and how are these students treated, even at a conference like this, maybe we should have more students here and bringing their voice because teachers sometimes aren't aware that they're doing it. And sometimes it's just a perpetuating thing that's being done. But there's still racial undertones there that are causing some problems. So I can't say I'm never one I'm not the type of scholars just say, here's the check off box of what you can do. I think that there's always these considerations that haven't been done quite well in schools, particular for white teachers. And we try those things and see where they go. But until we can really fight up against the negative attitudes towards black girls and black women, then we're just going to continue to see this cycle of exactly the things that you're saying that your colleague is mentioning, which I also talked about in my work.

Rebecca Hines  6:06  
Yeah. And so So what besides this? What besides this idea of this, you know, surveilling girls, because they are louder because of these different stereotypical behaviors? What other what other look force? Should we be telling these pre service teachers? Like when you see this, it doesn't necessarily mean this? Can you think of anything offhand

Dr. Christopher Cormier  6:30  
that I don't think that there's necessarily a what do you use? Because I think that the reality is that this is how schools, particularly the majority of our teachers, and schools, even spatter, white teachers, so I think that this is just how they're seen. So I can't, I don't want to give a prescriptive lens and saying that these are the things, what I will say, is that just paying attention to what's going on and how these students feel, these students are not one thing I will say about black girls in schools, they have no shame in saying how you're making them feel. And whether you agree with it or not, you cannot disagree with how someone feels. So if they're telling you how they feel, then listen to them. You know, and I think that happens all the time in schools, when I was teaching, they would say Mr. Comey, I told them to stop doing that, Mr. Comey, they're letting my teacher looked at my hair and wanted to touch it, you know, that does a level of surveillance, because it's, it's it's almost this unseen, or they don't understand what it means to be a black girl or whatever, whatever the case is. So I think that when these students are speaking up against something about what they want, what their needs are listening to them, because that doesn't happen all the time. And then when they say how they feel. The problem is that they're seen as defiant when they're just saying, This is how I feel. So I can't give a prescriptive lens, I think one of the most important things is listen to student voice, which we don't do, we want somebody else to necessarily tell us what to do when the student has no problem telling you what they want, what they don't want.

Lisa Dieker  7:47  
I love that. And I have to question that. So imagine I'm a high school teacher, I have 150 students throughout the day, I want to listen to their voice. How do I do that? Do you have any thoughts?

Dr. Christopher Cormier  7:58  
So it's interesting that you will say that, because in a presentation earlier today, I admitted that it's only been in the last few years that I've recognized, or at least been open to understanding the challenge that agenda teacher faces. Before my career, that attitude has been your Jannetty she's supposed to do it. We're all awesome fact that you have 148 kids in a day you're supposed to. So I understand the challenges. I think the reality is that even when you have because I didn't have that many students when I was teaching, but I did have like 80, of course the other day. So the reality is that even with those at all of them, I'm not necessarily vocal, and there's not necessarily any challenges with all of them. The reality is, as a teacher, that's just what you do. So you may, you know, you find ways and if you can't start, there were situations where I had students that would come to my class, because something happened in another class and they get upset, they just left, and they come to me because they're comfortable with me. I want to be empathetic, and I am it's not even I want to be the reality is I want the class that I have to teach that I'm teaching right in this moment. So I get a counselor on the call, I get someone that I know, that has another good relationship with them. I don't just blow them off. So then the thing is that as a teacher, sometimes you can't give your attention. Even as a parent, you can't give your attention every single place that you want to. But then are you going to really be mindful of providing resources I that student says something, whatever it is, is something that you're not doing, or somebody else isn't doing and you can't help them, then who can I talk with? Because sometimes I made the mistake of my career and saying go to the office, I'll call the counseling office, and they're just sitting there. And then they're there for the whole period. So I learned to get someone on the phone and say, come here to see this kid. And sometimes that may be even the janitor, that may just be someone that may be security. So I agree with you when you have that many students you may not. I think that going back to your question, the thing about the listening is if it's something that you're doing that's causing pain or anguish for that student, that you have no choice but to listen because you're the one that's causing the problems. On the flip side, if it's something that the student is experiencing, not not a home situation, per se, we know that you are mandated reporter but if it's an issue in another class or with somebody else, and you can't at that moment, then you find the correct resources to connect them And that may even just be calling home and just letting the parents know, whatever it is. But I think that again, if it's something that you're doing, I don't care if you have 3000 students, if you're causing some type of anguish, and that student is saying something, you need to find the time to listen. And if you're getting it with too many students, then you have to do a self examination of yourself, and not necessarily the student, not at all the students.

Lisa Dieker  10:19  
Yeah, that's I'm a Dewey fan, you know, look, not for the job, but a child. And boy, you know, and I love that, that it's that statement is not just timeless, I think you're saying that that statement is also very culturally responsive. And I think that's equally important. So our last question for you is, fast forward in the future, however far you want to go? What do you want the world to look like, from what you know, to this point in schools and classrooms for kids with disabilities,

Dr. Christopher Cormier  10:46  
I want students to be accepted. I think that I want the world to recognize that individual with disabilities, even outside of school, are just people and are not shouldn't be seen as someone to pity shouldn't be seen as some projects and be seen as someone I should be friends with. Just because, you know, it's almost like, we have these commercials that make people feel good, where there's a child who has an intellectual disability who was voted prom queen or something, and everyone's so happy. That's nice. Okay, but the reality is, when are we gonna live in a world where it's just natural that they they're not? The reality is we all know that this child was voted as a result of a pity vote and not because somebody actually wants to do it. So I want students with disabilities to feel an integral part of the team. It's almost like the I love old movies. And I love documentaries. And there's these documentaries that talked about old black films and The Little Rascals where you have all these white kids, you have one black kid, the interesting thing is buckwheat on the little rascals, the way even in the 1930s, was written in such a way where he was just a kid, a part of the team, like everyone else, he wasn't, he wasn't this black kid, he wasn't, he was just made to feel just as involved and just there like everyone else. And that's what I would want our schools to look like, I want our teachers, not just spec teachers, I want our Jeanette teachers, I want our administrators, I want everyone to say I don't want to walk into a teacher's lounge and hear about the child that, you know, can't read or something, or I don't want to sit at an IEP meeting and hear that, well, we shouldn't talk about this, because I know he's in the fourth grade, but he's not going to have a job other than just being a janitor. These are the types of things that I've seen in my career. And so I want these students to feel valued. Because special educators, we know that we know that they're just kids like everyone else, they laugh, they I had, there is no warmer experience, I guess I can say in closing, then I had as a special educator, the work that I do pre service teachers is great, unfortunately, sorry for my job. But I will say it does not match. When I was working with children, it just is not the same feeling. And so I just want the students to feel welcome. I want to be able to teach college classes, when my class is 80% Students with disabilities, you know, and that I'm hoping for a world with when that happens. And that would just be really welcoming to me. And lastly, it's almost like when I'm teaching classes, I get excited when I know students have advocated for themselves. And I get a notice from the counseling department saying that they need these accommodations, you know, so those are the types of things that I look for. I just hope we live in a world where they're just accepted and seen as just every like everyone else. And that that's what I'm hoping for.

Unknown Speaker  13:12  
Well, hopefully, leaders like you will be heard. I hope so.

Lisa Dieker  13:17  
Well, we thank you so much for your time as much and if you have questions, please tweet us at Access practical or you can post us questions on our Facebook page at practical access. Thank you again. Thank you so much.