Practical Access Podcast

S:2 E:5: College versus K-12 education rights to accommodations

May 11, 2020 Season 2 Episode 5
Practical Access Podcast
S:2 E:5: College versus K-12 education rights to accommodations
Show Notes Transcript

Drs. Rebecca Hines and Lisa Dieker, UCF Faculty members, answer a listener's question about the differences in rights from the K-12 setting to college. They address how the IEP ends and access begins. They share tips to help college students and parents/teachers understand that college is a privilege not a right under IDEA, but that students with disabilities still do have access to some levels of support. They remind listeners about the importance of considering college through Think College options for students with intellectual disabilities.  Remember questions can be shared on Twitter @accesspractical.  Follow us on itunes or iheart podcasts. 

spk_0:   0:04
welcome to practical access. I'm Lisa Dieker.  And I'm Rebecca Hines. I understand you had a question posed that you thought would be a good topic for today.

spk_1:   0:15
Yes, it was a great question and it came from a Parent "Could you kind of help us understand as parents? What's the difference in the world of an IEP in high school vs when students go to college ?" I have a few thoughts there, but I'm gonna kind of let you go first.

spk_0:   0:31
All right, Well, I'm happy to take it first. And because I can kind of guess what you're going to say, I'm going to go a different direction on and start with thinking about those students we don't normally think of. Traditionally,  as being kids will have an opportunity in college. And those are students with intellectual, disabilities as you know, because we both were on the committee that helped put together the program at our institution. There are now opportunities for kids of all abilities, so the IEP does not follow the child. Even in our case, Individuals with intellectual disabilities do not come to college with an IEP. Now programs across the country Better, easy to access through. Think college. One of our favorite resource is, those universities and colleges across the country that offer these programs. They all do a really nice job of customizing the experience, I think, for students when they come on their campus. But that customization doesn't follow a traditional IEP process. We do a lot of person centered planning. I know at UCF I would say that that idea of the persons that are planning is what most institutions I think rely on. And everything offers a markedly different experience in terms of what is available for students with intellectual disabilities on their campus. And again, Think College. If you go and just put in your zip code, it will tell you the institutions of participating  programs in your area.

spk_1:   2:10
Yeah, and I know you and I are both that professors who really don't try to fail students. We kind of feel like a student failing our classes, us failing to teach them. Yet you can't teach a student doesn't come to class. I think we've learned you can't teach a student doesn't turn in their assignment, and you certainly can't call their parents. And I think that's kind of, beginning piece. I think families have to recognize, you know, I don't know about you, but I've got a couple of those calls, you know. But I pay their tuition, yes, but they're an adult. And so I think that's true, whether you have abilities or disabilities. And if your child even comes to college with guardianship or signs away. I know my own son when he went to college, signed up that I could see his grades and talk to him. It's still really kind of the mantra of colleges to say, Why don't you talk to your your young adults on? And I think that's the word young adult. So I'm gonna go legal on everybody and remind them that the individuals with Disabilities and Education Act provide support. Freak birth Teoh, age 21 by law, but 21 doesn't mean college. 21 means that K through 12 setting. And so I think sometimes people get confused and say well, they still have rights under IDEA once they graduate with that diploma and they want to enter any kind of vocational technical college training. The rules are still there. You can't discriminate against people with disabilities. So like at our own university, have an amazing discussed accessibility office that will provide support true for every college campus. But it doesn't mean that you get to just have somebody come to class with you and your things for you. You have to have the big advocate word that we're both on. And the student has to be able to do it like we said in our last podcasts for themselves. Mom, Dad, para professional. Does it show up on campus and say, Here I hear is my child. I need them to have this. Certainly the university accessibly center will work with you as parents to help. But it's really the young adults who has to advocate. Have you had any experiences? I know I've had a few where people are like, but I didn't show up. And I have a disability like,, I will accommodate anyone. But your rights kind of stopped in picking that you can use that as a way to get extra stuff without putting documentation.

spk_0:   4:34
I haven't had a problem with people,  not being responsive. I in my cases but I often have is the disability service this contacting me to let me know student has a disability, which what happens in college I'm in and letting me know the support that they're allowed, but since my classes are pretty universally designed money, my bigger problem is always getting the flexibility services is actually our office, letting them know Well, it's okay because everybody gets extended time, who needs extended time? And I used principles of universal design so it is accessible to the students and they will have options for ways to serve themselves. So then my conversation goes something like, You know, the students are usually pretty proactive, and I tried to assure them that it's gonna be OK, and then it is on them later on. If they do you like, they're not getting the support. I do encourage them to do their own self. Check Midway. I'll be honest. I don't always remember to say, Hey, just working out. I do try to encourage them to do that themselves.

spk_1:   5:46
Well, and I think one of the differences as you have, you really usually see students when they're in our majors, so that kind of know where they want to go. I have the privilege of having taught several times. A class of 100 undergrads that were across Major is thinking about helping them understand the nature of disability. And it's always interesting because, you know, it'll be like the eight weeks of class, and they're like, Hey, I haven't been there, but I have a disability and hey, this place, that's all about helping you understand that And I am very flexible, but I can't help you haven't been here a recommend you withdraw, you know, or I didn't turn my final and I'm like, But it's the day after their dio. So I think there's there's some of that especially cause of 100. I would say 90% of the students I've seen at all three institutions have been amazing, but it's that 10% and usually it's something like, Well, can I put my mom on the fund with you? And I'm like, Well, I would be happy for you to call Mom, and you and I talked to Mom, but I'm not gonna talk to Mom directly and I think that's that's really true in general. And I'll just tell parents a little tip. This 1 may be one of the crazier tips I've given Bucky, but when I sent my son off to college and he was this elite gymnasts, I called disability Services and I said, I know, I know. I know that my son needs to tell you Is disabilities need I just have the craziest question for you. What's the best major for somebody with a disability graduate that's also an athlete? And she told me the two majors and I said, Josh, you get to pick between these two on And he laughed and he said, Good, cause he didn't know what he wanted to do anyway. And exactly what you just said. He actually picked Major. That was very university design. There was more Project based was more and again that was its strength. I think if you didn't really like people would have been a horrible major of the second choice of of criminal justice might have been better if he wanted more writing and reading kinds of material, and but I do think that's important to know a couple spots once said know yourself. But they talked to the disabilities office and say, Okay, well, this is my strength. And I want to be, you know, an engineering student. But I have a phobia. Probably not a good idea, because we do know in the hard sciences we have amazing colleagues, but you deal is not always the biggest option, depending on majors. I have more thoughts about that. I'd be there. E

spk_0:   8:04
sure,  I'm gonna bring it back to the classroom teacher before the kids get to college in two specific things that I've noticed across the years. One is a couple of years ago, I was consulting with the district that has to review a representative sample of their IEPS for kids with, significant emotional behavioral issues. And it was a very big district. So it was a lot of IEPs. I was shocked to find that 90% of those IEPs said that the transition plan was six months after graduating, they were gonna be in college and yet the percentage because I calculated it all. When I started to see this trend, the percentage of kids would even passed our state or the state that I was working with past their proficiency exams was less than 10%. And so I was a little, you know, that's not what I was actually looking at these for. So it wasn't my place to raise red flags other than conversationally with staff that I knew. And but it really did bring  to mind that idea just because the opportunity is there and they know we're very college and career focus. If we're not preparing kids well in whatever way we need to in the K 12 setting,  just because they want to go doesn't mean they will. They will be eligible to go, and I think that people lose sight of that. And so I've felt bad for the kids who might think that they were authentically going to be going to college and who weren't getting other advice. I felt I was really disheartened to see that big disconnect. Lisa and I think it's something that we as just the educational community. I need to get back in and dig a little deeper in these in these IEP's and make sure that we are preparing kids in a way that they that they will be able to attend some type of post secondary if they choose to do that and even for the students with intellectual disability, said I mentioned earlier, Their pathway into a university is different because it's usually a separate initiative or program, and so they're not necessarily expected to get in the same way. But you and I both know that when we interview kids for that program, the first thing we asked them is, What do you want? A major? It just like you said The parents were not allowed to answer. Why do you want to come here? And it can't just be because you want to be at UCF cause you always watch night football games. You have to be able to tell us what you want to study and why. And really there is no reading prerequisite. There's nothing for our program. However, you have to be able to discuss and explain why you want to go to college. So there are things that we need to be teaching kids. There are things that we need to promote, independence and and self. I'd because he has, we constantly say, But it just started to Kato a question, because if we wait until kids are old enough to go to college, so we teach them those things, it it's really too late.

spk_1:   11:31
And I'm gonna go back to the K 12 stunning and kind of piggyback on what you said. But it's also about access. We know the number one barrier for all kids and especially kids report and kids from diverse backgrounds is college algebra. If I don't even get access to the traditional algebra teacher in no offense, you and I are pretty smart people, and I do a lot of work in mathematics. But I'm pretty sure I didn't have 36 credits and mathematics. Like many of our high school teachers did who are teaching the advanced math classes. Those kids who don't get that accessed  often don't even get out of the community college level because that is a prerequisite. And I think that's the other thing we have to recommend and realize is that kids, probably with disabilities, need the most support if they're on a traditional college half during those elective times are those prerequisite times those electives. Once you get into your major and you want to be a teacher, by golly, you know you've got that skill set. But, man, when you gotta do history, algebra, biology and that's also something else to think about, there isn't the oh, I can go and get my special ed teacher to help me in college. You may have to pay for a tutor. You may have to find free tutoring services at the Y M. C. A. You may have to take advantage of your childs, an athlete, the NCAA tutoring that most universities provide. But I think it's those types of things that if if your child young adult doesn't recognize that in the transition from high school to college, once they start down the path of that low GPA at the university level, it does haunt them forever. We work with PhD students and the number one thing I see it no offense to the guys of the world but have only seen it with guys is even to get a doctorate, you had to have a minimum underground of a three point up or could put you on probation. And so thinking about that at a very early stage, you know, if it's not going well that first semester, maybe your total that just really is not ready yet. Give them a year. Give them a gap here. But don't assume that it takes four years to get it for your degree. Many students without disabilities take five and six years, and I think that's what we have to realize. The IEP is to build the foundation colleges to launch you into your career. But you have to do that without that formalized. You get supports, but they're just not.

spk_0:   13:44
Well, I think that that sets us up nicely for our next topic in the next episode, Lisa, which will be time management and you're actually the most productive person that I know literally. So I look for the thinking about that as it relates to K 12 college and really a life skill.

spk_1:   14:04
Alright, well, we look forward, to additional tweets at access practical, and we look forward to talking with your next podcast