Drs. Rebecca Hines and Lisa Dieker, UCF Faculty members, share their thoughts on rigor in learning in this online world. They share their thoughts on how to ensure and assess rigorous learning outcomes. They discuss the importance of discourse with children/students around the content while looking for rich, rigorous, and engaging content.
Drs. Rebecca Hines and Lisa Dieker, UCF Faculty members, share their thoughts on rigor in learning in this online world. They share their thoughts on how to ensure and assess rigorous learning outcomes. They discuss the importance of discourse with children/students around the content while looking for rich, rigorous, and engaging content.
spk_0: 0:04
welcome to access. I'm Lisa Dieker
spk_1: 0:08
and I'm Rebecca Hines. This episode I was thinking, because again, I have school age kids here in my house. You know what's happening with rigor? You know what? What do we do to promote rigor in these in these online environments? And what what is the role and responsibility of the parent to ensure the kids are actually participating rigorously? What? What are your thoughts on that?
spk_0: 0:36
Well, I'm gonna go back to my roots of special ed and say, this might be an opportunity. This actually ensure equality and rigor. Yet what I worry about is that Group A is getting this. A Group B is getting that in Group C is getting nothing or less of that. Or I also worry that kids with disabilities might be getting a lot of their service is like speech PT, OT and missing that academic no different that we see in brick and mortar. And so I think that it's got to be a time where we keep asking ourselves. Not only were meeting the IEP goals, but are we really assessing the standards. And if kids are on access points, that's still okay. But they still should be accessing the content of the standard. And I think the only way to do that goes back to one of my rote values, which is including them in the same activities you're doing with everybody else. And I'm not sure that's happening everywhere. I see highlights of amazing work as I know you do. And then other places that talk a lot about meeting goals. But I don't know about the rigor of content. So what are you saying or what are you thinking?
spk_1: 1:41
Well, I agree that there's definitely, a disparity among access, and I think it has expected it's really district to district and school to school across state to state. Yeah, what I can see. So part of it kind of starts with what a district. You know how a district has helped roll out all this? So no doubt about that. And as you know, Lisa, when it comes to achievement, there are a lot of factors that are correlated with achievement in school. But the number one coral it that can be controlled by teachers and now, unfortunately by parents, is instructional time and opportunity to learn. I mean that historically that's been that's the thing. So, opportunity to learn is what District should now be offering. They should. They should be sending out the curriculum and making it accessible, so kids do have an opportunity to learn. But that amount of time that the students really actually engaged in instruction, if schools are doing things a synchronously, which means, not really time. But they're just pushing out the information. Unfortunately, now again, it's back on parents to ensure that that instructional time is happening. And I think that's a that's a real challenge. I keep reading, different posts from parents, saying, not doing it. I'm gonna enjoy my kid. Yeah, you know, I can't I can't be the teacher and the parent and the worker right now, so you know, and I can really feel for them. But I think we have to think about the opportunity to learn and the actual instructional time, the amount of time that kids engaged in instruction, and I think that the district's that are able right now to engage their kids synchronously. In other words, you know, through different kind of online meetings. Those districts, I would imagine, are gonna have probably a little bit better learning games because at least if they have a good percentage of kids logging in day there, at least delivering the instruction.
spk_0: 3:45
Yeah, I I think you know time's important. And yet I respect as parents. Not only can you not be your kid's teacher, I was given some great advice by a fabulous colleague in Michigan who said, Don't be your sons tutor because you want to be their parents. And yet, right now, everybody's a tutor whether you want to be or not. And and I think whether the tutorial is coming from a packet, that the parent has to interpret what the teacher wants and the teacher gets back a week later versus the packet is the teacher delivering the parent listening, learning with and supporting. I think you're gonna have different outcomes, and unfortunately, our kids of poverty are gonna sometimes to be the kids. You don't have access. I really do respect that We have Internet providers providing free access. But again, free access in a home with one device means limitations. Yes, I do have to celebrate. We've got some great amazing parents were really making some tough choices with their budgets. I know a lot of the teachers I worked with in Title one schools parents are going out buying computers. They're going out of their way to ask for devices At a teacher last night said, You know what? I called another district? That's rich and they said, Yeah, we got extra computers, come and get them So you know, I think it's a time for people to step up and say, Look, I kind of old computer at my house is the neighbor next door doesn't have one that can have it But I do think kids who don't have that ability to be online see their teachers and the teachers get immediate results from kids learning. I think that's the other thing we're missing. Is that immediate feedback when kids can immediately know they're right versus when they're wrong? Most of our kids with LD when they're wrong and they learn it wrong, Good luck. When I go back to school next year because that's ingrained as the way that they learned it at that moment. And I think that's what keeps me up.
spk_1: 5:27
Well, I think apparent to if you're worried about your student and Houston, I'm so T Cherie, if you're worried about your child's teacher No. And
spk_0: 5:39
you have twins. So you've got double pair Though
spk_1: 5:42
twins of kids. You are very different academically yet not surprisingly, at this moment are so similar in their complete lack of interested out of the pool in doing something online. So it is interesting, though, because, what I've found in in terms of rigor across the board is, you know, I sometimes have to seek out what I think are the best learning materials for my kids. Anyway, you know, there. Look, if I have my kids are in high school, and I do use I will look at Khan Academy. I will. Look, you know you can download. I really hate to say this again. I don't want to make people's brains explode, but, you know, you can download the state standards And if you're worried about on an app. There's an app you can download, you know, state standards. So there's even using just key words that, you know we're at the grade level of your child, even weaving it in when I say things like opportunity to learn. If you don't feel like your kids are getting the opportunity they need, don't make it harder on yourself. Don't don't think that it's about sitting down and doing things the old way. It is about taking a nature walk. But if you know some key words or some key things that kids are supposed to be learning at at their grade level, you know, I would try to weave some of that into my natural language in my discussion, things like social skills. Lisa, this is a good chance for a lot of those soft skills, and we don't get a chance to teaches lately, you know. So I would make it easier on myself as a parent. Because honestly, I would not want it. I don't want to sit with my kids all day and try to, you know, fight them to do their work. I do want to make sure that they're learning something. Even if it's those soft skills right now, those communications skills. Maybe if we just try to at least talk to our kids more and maybe teachers could send out, you know, maybe we're maybe we're thinking what one thing I really took from a recent graduate course I was teaching on line. One of the one of the students in my class said, You know, I wish I had not sent out so much information and overwhelmed the parents so fast, and that really resonated with me. What if What if teachers just send it quick text in the morning and said, Here's four key words to try to use all day. Yeah, I think we might see more learning gains if we thought a little differently as teachers about what we're actually sending out in the first place.
spk_0: 8:16
It's funny because you had on my absolute favorite thing, and it's probably one of my personal pet peeves when I walk into a special education class focused on math or science, and it seems to be that when we teach kids with disabilities, math or science, we tend to want to tell them, and we tend to let them use one word. Statements like, you know, What's that number at the bottom? Before it was not a four. It's 1/4 you know, And using a complete sentence. 1/4 of the hole is, you know, 25%. Can you say that? In a complete sense. So I think at home I would also be working, especially in the math and science. We do this great in reading Re tell me the story. The kid didn't say a guy ran hell, you know, you just wouldn't do that. But in mathematics and science, it tends to be how we approach it, you know? Got hotter. Well, what does that mean? You know? Well, when the water was on the stove, it began to boil, which means the temperature rise and it was hotter. You know, that's the kind of conversation I would be having in my house, especially in math and science with kids, so that we're not just having social what we're having really complete sentence discussion. I know your kids are older, but honestly, I don't think you could ever be too old, because that's what happens enough in science. We assume, you know if you spit out the answer. And really, that's not math and science today, it's conceptual understanding. The only way to know what you're thinking is to ask a kid and ask a kid with a disability what they're thinking sometimes to get things you work planting the year,
spk_1: 9:46
you know, kind of to flash back to one of our earlier episodes, I will tell you the one thing that I have had success with here and again, you know, thinking outside you mentioned the idea of immediate feedback. We have taken, Khan Academy quizzes and even some of the money. Be honest, some of the virtual quizzes that my kids were asked to do, and we project them on the TV and we play it like a quiz game, and we all guess our answer way. We look at the real answer and you know, we're trying to make it. Is game like a possible, But honestly, I've had I've had my kids do more history over the last few days, just putting it up on the TV and doing it, and I'm just like the show host and we just guessing our answers and seeing if We're right. I
spk_0: 10:36
just wanted to get the most right. I bet it's not. You
spk_1: 10:38
know it's on. You know who it is in my house? Not me.
spk_0: 10:43
the girl genes.
spk_1: 10:45
it's not me. But, you know, circling back, I think we kind of a silly sometimes you were a little, a field of rigor per se, right? No, but, kids do need feedback. I do recommend Khan Academy. I do recommend finding something that includes self grading quizzes, but not punitively. That's the great thing about something like Khan Academy is not punitive. You go in and you see if you know it, yes or no. So if you can align that some of the topics your kids are supposed to be learning about. And if you feel like your child is not getting the content here she needs right now, I would turn to a really well vetted resource like Khan academy, and I would try to make it feel as non threatening as possible and use it as an opportunity just to let the child keep working. Keep practicing really low stakes environment.
spk_0: 11:38
Okay, But I don't have to push back a little bit. My friends and math and science will be like What? Because I do believe Khan Academy is fabulous, but it doesn't have dialogue. So I think it's a great place for parents to go and learn the math, but really to have dialogue with their kids. Because I do believe that what it's missing is the conceptual piece of. So, you know, we disagree quite often and select
spk_1: 12:03
really stated as somebody who could apparently watch a Khan academy on been discussed it with their child. My kids have known more about math and me for the last.
spk_0: 12:12
Well, I'm talking first. Great. I'm not talking college basketball. Yeah, so
spk_1: 12:17
even teach you if you it is all. Or maybe
spk_0: 12:20
Lisa man. Yes, but I do think that it's important when kids are really young, they learn to have discussions about math. And I do think that's often missing. And again, I love I love the writing on the board and the procedural knowledge, but we know conceptual knowledge is what we need. So just keep that and having this part of your rigor. Yeah, absolutely. All right, Well, we are Rickard out. I think so. That was rigorous enough for one night. What do you think? Any last thoughts?
spk_1: 12:44
No, other than just if you can hear the loud Children in the background. My
spk_0: 12:49
apologies. Oh, no, It sounded nice and quite a my end. All right, What? We thank you for joining us and join us on Twitter @accesspractical and post your questions.