Practical Access Podcast

S12 E6: Bridging Gaps in Math Education: Crafting Inclusive, Asset-Based IEP Goals

• Season 12 • Episode 6

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In this episode of Practical Access, hosts Lisa Dieker and Rebecca Hines welcome Joleigh Honey, a seasoned math educator and advocate for inclusive IEP (Individualized Education Program) goals in mathematics. Joleigh, with over 30 years of experience, shares insights into creating meaningful, grade-level math goals for students with disabilities. She emphasizes the importance of providing students with multiple, varied opportunities to access and demonstrate grade-level content, while also leveraging their unique strengths and experiences.

Joleigh discusses strategies for teachers working with students at varying levels of academic ability, offering guidance on developing IEP goals that are neither too narrow nor too vague. She encourages a shift from focusing on students' deficiencies to building on their assets, enabling a deeper and more confident understanding of math. She also addresses parents, advising them on how to engage with IEP goals and support their children at home.

The episode concludes with Joleigh’s recommendation of asset-based resources, including her co-authored book, Transforming Your Math Classroom Using Asset-Based Perspectives. This episode is a valuable listen for educators and parents alike, filled with practical advice on fostering success and confidence in math for all learners.

We love to hear from our listeners! If you have any questions, feel free to reach out. We look forward to receiving your questions on our Twitter (@Accesspractical) or Instagram (@Practical_Access).

Joleigh's Bio: https://www.nctm.org/About/President,-Board-and-Committees/Nominations-and-Elections/2023-Candidates/Joleigh-Honey/

Transforming Your Math Classroom Using Asset-Based Perspectives: https://us.corwin.com/books/assets-based-teaching-288055 

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Music.

Lisa Dieker:

Welcome to Practical Access. I'm Lisa Dieker.

Rebecca Hines:

And I'm Rebecca Hines and Lisa. Today's topic is one that so many teachers are going to be interested in, because everyone needs support. It seems like with those IEPs. Who do we have today?

Lisa Dieker:

Yeah, so we're excited to have with us, Joleigh Honey and Joleigh, thank you so much for joining us.

Joleigh Honey:

Yeah, you guys, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Lisa Dieker:

Yeah. So, tell us a little bit about your background and your interest in these wonderful IEP goals, specifically the seasons on math and science, and I know you're really a person who thinks deeply about IEP goals and mathematics, which I think is a really rare trait. So, give us a little bit of your background and your interest in that area.

Joleigh Honey:

Yeah, absolutely. So, I actually am a math educator with 30 plus years experience. I started as a secondary math high school teacher, and then over time, became a an academic coach who supported other teachers, a math supervisor and an administrator. And then I found myself at the Utah State Department of Education, and while I had been working with my colleagues to support students with disabilities. Prior to that time, I fell in love with and became just super passionate about the work in supporting students with having access to high quality grade level content. And that's where it started. And then from there, I just learned so much about IEP goals, took courses, became more familiar. We actually had a cross departmental implementation team that worked on the National State Systemic Improvement Plan, and our focus was to support students with disabilities in not just having access to grade level content, but also like being successful with it and and having a lot more confidence in the work that they do.

Rebecca Hines:

You know, when you when you mentioned Joleigh this idea, I love it, because I'm always trying to get people to understand that everyone deserves access to the same level. And we have to understand also that they're not necessarily all going to leave with exactly the same level of knowledge at the conclusion of a great lesson, but they deserve access to it. You know, that's really the bottom line of inclusion. So, what would you say for those teachers who are trying, you know, they're trying to teach a classroom that has multiple levels? You know, of of of academic knowledge, background knowledge, and for some reason, you know disability or otherwise, you know maybe they're not performing at the same level. Where does, where does a teacher get started writing a really sophisticated, a really quality IEP goal for someone who needs remediation, but you're not, you're not wanting them to get pulled out to get the remediation. I know that's a specific question, but where do we start thinking about that?

Joleigh Honey:

Yeah, no, I love that question so and in fact, I'm going to answer it, I think, kind of twofold, because one is, you're so right. Students come into lessons with different experiences, different backgrounds, different talents, and I think it's one of the reasons that we really talk about the fact that we need to make sure that students are provided multiple opportunities over time, and that it's not a here we are. I've taught this, and now all students are here, right? Like there's this whole process of over time, we want students to have a deep, conceptual and procedural understanding of the most important concepts within a grade, band within a grade. And so that's one aspect. Is like trying not to think of it as a lesson, but as multiple opportunities in different ways over time to make sense of it. And then the other thing is, is we do all have different experiences. And so, trying to think about, how can we use our the present levels of academic achievement and functional performance, the plat to talk about what are students strengths and thinking about, what are the talents that they bring, what are the ways that they are better, best able to communicate, and whatever the communication situation happens to be is to be able to express their understanding and giving students that choice, and then focusing on like, the wonderful thing about the way that we work in math these days is that there are these big ideas in grade bands that students you know, like the multiplication, the relationship between multiplication, division, addition of subtraction, that happens throughout third through fifth grade. It is so beautiful that it's like students develop strategies and ideas and they can show different ways. And I think it's really important that we provide students opportunities to express how they are understanding the concepts based on their way of thinking, and that we leverage that instead of trying to always redirect them to here's the procedure of this, and then the goal is that students become fluent and knowledgeable over time by having those experiences.

Rebecca Hines:

Yes, love it.

Lisa Dieker:

So I think, you know, yes, I think you know, I'm getting excited, because I do think that this is one of the hardest areas in our field. Sometimes for teachers, either they don't have the background, or they have, as you said, the background be for the big ideal world where you taught the chapter and you moved to the next chapter instead of thinking deeply. But because you've had so much experience in seeing so many IEPs, I would love to hear you tell me, as a new teacher, you've been an academic coach, what would you tell me not to put on the IEP in mathematics? Like? What would be like, "Yeah, Lisa, don't go here." I see you ready for that.

Joleigh Honey:

We have these conversations. I know we have these conversations, and as a new teacher, this is exactly what I would have done is. And in fact, I I thought this when I was first getting involved with this is it's like, okay, you look at the plaque up, you're like, here's what the student skill level says. And it's like, oh, they don't know how to tell time, and they're in third grade. So, what I will see is either very specific IEP goals that are something that is either below grade level or only covered in class for a short, very short period of time. And then it feels like the special education teacher is not in alignment with the gen ed teacher, because they're like, specifically focusing on this minute skill, or the IEP goal is so vague that, like that they don't change from year to year. So, so in the in the space of what I learned over time is you want IEP goals that focus on the major work of what's happening in that grade level, so that students have access to it time and time again, and that they have opportunities to make connections. Like, it's kind of like the Goldilocks, right? Like too narrow, and like, it's like, it doesn't make sense, or too vague, and it's like, you're not really hitting a goal.

Lisa Dieker:

I love that answer. Thank you.

Rebecca Hines:

And you know now I will be the first to admit that I am not the math person, and I have a really simple question, is there, is there an opportunity for teachers, in your opinion? You know, is it, would you consider it a good opportunity to think about the output more than the as you said, discrete skills? So, is there an opportunity in writing these IEP goals to say that Lisa will verbally express how to, you know, solve X, Y or Z. Type of problem. Is that something that teachers do or can do?

Joleigh Honey:

Yeah, we actually do some work with groups that really talk about like students will solve problems using the relationship between multiplication and division using strategies of their choice. And then we kind of say something like, you know, within 100 which is a third grade standard in most states, is, and so that makes it so that it's like, you know that what you're doing is you have, you know, situations that exist that are a big part of that, but it's but it's not. It's not saying specifically multiplication, it's not saying specifically division, but students can create array models. They can make sense of number of groups and size of groups, that sort of thing. You said it was a very simple question. I have to tell you, my heart kind of stopped for a moment. You know how that goes. And yes, you're most definitely a math person, so I that was a great question.

Lisa Dieker:

Well, and my question is, is kind of following on that at a simple level, and, and I think it's something that you really are an expert in, is now I'm a parent, so let me put on the parent hat for a moment. And I get this big page, the paperwork, and I get to the page on math, and it's like, what, what does that mean? How, as a parent, do you suggest I try to not only interpret the IEP? But, and maybe, what are some things I could be doing at home to support my child based on reading that IEP? Like, what are some things that you might say to families when they get that IEP and it has math goals, because we see reading goals a lot, and we see a lot of tools out there in reading the math buckets a little bit smaller. What are some your go-to things that might help parents?

Joleigh Honey:

Yes, so I will share that when we have conversations in the groups that I work with, one of the things that we do is teachers are becoming huge in advocating for parents to contribute and and have have different aspects. So let me, let me just share this. One I'm going to, I think I'm going to make this threefold. One is having parents advocate for students to have IEP goals that are grade level students can absolutely make sense of grade level content. So, that being the first thing is like, and then the second thing is working with teachers, and that both gen ed, special ed, the administration, everyone to kind of be like, how can I support the strengths that I know that my child has, and contribute that to the conversation, so that the parent the teachers are more aware of those strengths of this child, but then also that can be something that they work on together throughout the year, so that students see themselves as being mathematicians, if you will, that they see themselves as stewards of mathematics, and that they see they see themselves as being confident in the mathematics that they're doing. And I said threefold, but I think that the second and third one like in the end, we want students to not only be successful, but we also want them to see themselves, and we want others to see them as as as people who are capable of doing mathematics. And I think that when our IEP goals are below grade level, we start talking about interventions before we talk about instruction, and we really need to start with instruction and providing supports for students to be successful and and I think that parents, you know, we just want to do what's best for our child, but starting with, what is the big idea in this grade level, and how can I support my child? And then second, how do I support them with their strengths? And then third, making sure that my child feels like that they are confident and capable of doing mathematics.

Rebecca Hines:

So, I will ask my final question, which is, you've used the word support? Lisa's used the word support. It's, you know, parents need opportunity support. Do you have one favorite tool or one favorite resource that you could give to teachers or parents who are looking for a way to support kids might find its way into the IEP at some point as a tool. But do you have something you could recommend?

Joleigh Honey:

Yeah, I I don't have these multi answers, but

I'm going to give 2:

1 support is, how are we collecting student data, often over time, and showing how students are flexible, accurate and efficient, and the work that they're doing. So, what is a tool that makes it so that teachers are able to collect that data, so that students have all kinds of different problems, and that they can see that, like they can draw bottles, or that they can create a raise, or that they can use partial products, and I'm using those examples because we gave third through fifth grade earlier, but that's one kind of support is like, how are we making sense of how students are making sense of the work? But then the other support that I think is universal for everyone to provide is focusing on students assets. So, I haven't mentioned this yet, but a book that I just co authored with Mike Steele that has transformed your math classroom using asset based perspectives. It is really that conversation of starting with what students know and supporting them to go to the next level based on what it is that they already know, as opposed to honing in on what they don't know and fixing their mistakes.

Rebecca Hines:

Love it.

Joleigh Honey:

Like instead of redirecting them to your way of thinking, how are we listening to what the student is saying and hearing their thoughts so that we are building on what they are saying.

Lisa Dieker:

Well, that was wonderful advice. I love that you ended with that great comment of asset based, because I think that's what we believe. And actually Becky stole my last question, so that will be the last question I was going to ask her. What were your two favorite things you would recommend for teachers? So we really appreciate you being with us, and we would look forward to highlighting that book and that work and learning more from you online. So, if you have questions, please send us a Tweet at Access Practical, or you can post a question for us on our Facebook page. Thank you again, Joleigh, for joining us, and thanks for that wonderful advice.

Rebecca Hines:

Thank you, Joleigh.

Joleigh Honey:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you both so much for having me. Have a wonderful thanks. This is great. Bye.